Roger Nichols is a special guest on The Paul Leslie Hour.
On this episode we are in the presence of one of the world’s great songwriters. Composer, musician & recording artist Roger Nichols gives a rare interview. He is one of the people I have most wanted to interview on The Paul Leslie Hour. Why? He has composed some of the most captivating music ever.
Here are some of the great songs co-written by Roger Nichols: “We’ve Only Just Begun,” “I Won’t Last a Day Without You,” and “Rainy Days and Mondays” all recorded by the Carpenters. “Out in the Country” was recorded by Three Dog Night and R.E.M. All of these songs he co-wrote with Paul Williams. He also wrote “Times of Your Life,” with Bill Lane, which was a hit for Paul Anka.
Nichols also records with his own group: Roger Nichols and the Small Circle of Friends.” He’s talented in so many ways. As a musician he’s a mulit-instrumentalist who can play guitar, bass, piano, and violin.
It’s a great pleasure to welcome an artist who composed songs sung by some of the greats of all time. Everyone from Barbra Streisand, Frank Sinatra Jr., Art Garfunkel and Barry Manilow, just to name a few. He’s right here on The Paul Leslie Hour. What a thrill!
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Official Transcript of Roger Nichols Interview on The Paul Leslie Hour
PAUL LESLIE: Hey, it’s me. Well, ladies and gentlemen, we are in the presence of one of the world’s great songwriters. He is a composer, musician, and recording artist. Roger Nichols is here. He is one of the individuals I most have wanted to interview on the Paul Leslie Hour. The reason is that I believe he has composed some of the most captivating music ever.
Here are some of the great songs he co-wrote: ‘We’ve Only Just Begun,’ ‘I Won’t Last a Day Without You,’ ‘Rainy Days and Mondays,’ all of course, recorded by the Carpenters. There’s also ‘Out in the Country,’ recorded by both Three Dog Night and R.E.M.” And all of those songs he co-wrote with Paul Williams. He also co-wrote ‘Times of Your Life,’ which was a hit for Paul Anka. He co-wrote that one with Bill Lane.
Roger Nichols also records with his own group, Roger Nichols and the Small Circle of Friends. He’s talented in many ways. As a musician, he’s a multi-instrumentalist, playing guitar, bass, piano, and violin. He is also a jeweler. So Roger Nichols, thank you so much for being a guest on the show.
Initial Greeting
Well, thank you. It’s an honor.
So how are you this day?
I’m just fine. It’s a beautiful day, and I’m just fine.
Oh, that’s good to hear.
Early Career Beginnings
Well, I want you to take us back. What is your most vivid memory from early on?
Well, let’s start at the beginning. I was signed as a songwriter to A&M Records, to Herb Alpert’s company, and this was about 1966 or something like that. And I was writing for the Small Circle of Friends, and I started writing with Tony Asher. Now, Tony Asher was the lyricist for The Beach Boys, or some of their songs, anyway.
And then one day Chuck Kaye, who was the head of the publishing company, introduces me to Paul Williams. And we hit it off right away, and Paul said, well, why don’t you play me something? So I played him a melody. And the next day, he came back. And he said, I don’t know if this is good, but he said, this is what I wrote. And he played it for me. And I said, Paul, I think that’s good.
We went in the studio that day. And I recorded the demo myself, which is, which is terrible, but I did. And we took it across the street to Tommy LiPuma, who was recording different people and one of them was Claudine Longet. So I played in this song, He said, “This is perfect for Claudine Longet.” So within one day, we had a song recorded by an artist. And that kind of kicked off our long-living career.
And from there, we were getting some album cuts, but nothing like a big hit. And then along came the Carpenters, and the Carpenters were looking for material. And in the meantime, Paul and I got this request from, well, from Crocker Bank in California to write a song for a wedding ceremony. So we wrote, ‘We’ve Only Just Begun,’ just the first two verses.
Well, they played it on the radio and on television and Richard Carpenter picked up on it. He said, “Oh, I like that song.” And in the meantime, Wells Fargo, Crocker Bank had come back and said, “We want a full song to give to our clientele.” So in the meantime, Paul and I had written the bridge and the last verse ‘We’ve Only Just Begun.’ done. So when Richard called us, I said, “We have a full song.” So we played it for him and the rest is history. Interesting stuff.
Discovering Songwriting Talent
So how did you come to learn that you had ability that you could create your own melodies?
Well, I don’t know. I grew up in a musical family. My mother was a music major and she played piano. And my father was a sax player, a jazz musician. Now, I was just on the side. He was a photographer for real. But anyway, I grew up in a musical family and I played violin all the way through high school.
At high school, I started listening to records and the radio a lot. And I said, “I think I can do that.” And little by little, I started writing. And little by little, the Small Circle of Friends came together. And we went into a real recording studio. And I was just knocked out when I heard the Small Circle of Friends over a real recording studio. And from that point on, I just started writing.
And who knows, it works.
Indeed, so you would say that writing songs is something, it’s more or less, it’s innate, it’s something that you’re either born to do or not.
Yeah, I think so. And I know that when I’m writing, I have to be writing for something. I just don’t write randomly. And I notice that when I’m writing for something, like the Carpenters, the songs are much better. Interesting, and I always write the melodies first and Paul would put the lyrics to the melody.
Parental Reaction to Creative Pursuits
You were mentioning just a moment ago that your parents were, you could say, artistic people. Yeah, were they encouraging of you wanting to do all of these things that are creative?
No. My mother said, go get your college degree first and then if you want to fool around with music, do it later. So I did start to college. Believe it or not, I was a basketball player and I went to UCLA with John Wooden and I played for a couple years there.
But I was just running up to Hollywood all the time and writing music and doing stuff. And John Wooden said, “Hey man, you got to make a decision. You got to play basketball or you got to do something else.” So anyway, I wound up quitting school and started writing music.
Musical Influences
And what about the music that you grew up with, the stuff that you heard either on the radio or playing on records, what was the stuff that you really liked or that influenced you?
I can say for sure, Frank Sinatra and, you won’t believe this, The Four Freshmen. The Four Freshmen was a singing group, great harmony, great songs, and I just love them. And actually, the Small Circle of Friends kind of evolved from that group. Interesting.
First Recording Studio Experience
So the first time that you went into a recording studio, can you tell us what are your most vivid memories of the sights and sounds of that day?
Well, it was the three of us, and it was, I was playing guitar, and Maureen and Linda and I went into this recording studio. Maureen’s mother set it up. She was a commercial broadcaster, and she set this whole thing up for us. So I went into the studio, and it was a nice size studio, not great, but it was Western Recording.
And we just started singing and playing and they played it back over the big speakers and we were all just knocked out because we never heard ourselves through real speakers and that was right then. That was like, that was night and day.
First Artist to Record His Song
So who was the first recording artist, singer, instrumentalist, whatever, the first artist that did one of your songs?
Herb Alpert. Herb Alpert recorded ‘The Treasure of San Miguel’ in one of his very first albums. I was, I did a studio and recorded this instrumental along with a couple of Small Circle drum things. And it was in the publisher’s office at A&M Records, with Chuck Kaye And I played it for him.
And he said, “That’s really good, Roger.” And along came Herb Alpert and walked in a room. And Chuck said, “Rodge, would you excuse us?” So I went out in the lobby. Next thing I know, I hear this instrumental of mine being played. I said, ‘I wrote that for you.’ He said, ‘This is fantastic. So I love this thing.’ So he went into the studio and recorded it. It was never a single, but it was on his album, and that’s how it started.
But you want to talk about hitting a home run, from the Herb Alpert is the first person, that’s awesome, and it was after that that he signed me as a writer.
Impressions of Herb Alpert
I love Herb Alpert. What is he like when you’re just eyeball to eyeball with him?
Oh, he’s terrific. He’s a real cool guy. He’s not overpowering, but he’s friendly and he’s on the target. You know, he talks about music and whatever, you know, he just doesn’t mess around. He’s a real good guy. He’s just a good guy.
Finding Songwriting Collaborators
So now that you’re signed to A&M, were you the one looking for songwriting collaborators? Or were they looking to match you with somebody? How did it come to be?
Yeah, they were looking for me. And like I say, right away, I started writing with Tony Asher. But I know I had one interview with Sammy Cahn. And I don’t know what happened to that. It just, nothing ever happened.
But so anyway, I was running with Tony Asher, and we wrote a few things for the Small Circle of Friends and A&M Records was recording these songs and it was during that process that Paul Williams came into the scene.
Meeting Paul Williams
Can you recall the first time you and Paul Williams were in a room together? What was your first impression of him?
Well, again, we met, and he was a small guy, but he was a nice guy. He was kind and friendly, and we hit it off, and I played him this melody, and he says, “Let me take it home and see what I can do.” And that was it. It really wasn’t a long meeting at all, you know?
Impact of Nichols and Williams Songs
And my, the songs that you guys have brought into the world, why do you suppose the songs of Nichols and Williams have made such an impact on the world of music?
Well, let’s be honest. It’s the Carpenters that really launched our career. Now, the Carpenters’ first hit was “Close to You,” but Paul and I had the back side was ‘I Kept on Loving You.’ But then the next single after ‘Close to You’ was ‘We’ve Only Just Begun,’ and Richard to this day says that was their theme song.
Hmm, and ‘We’ve Only Just Begun’ is now celebrating, it’s been more than 50 years now, I know that it was called one of the 500 greatest songs of all time, and in addition to the Carpenters having done it, it’s been done by so many great singers. Johnny Mathis, I’ve heard the Barry Manilow version, Bing Crosby, Jack Jones.
Appeal of ‘We’ve Only Just Begun’
Why do you suppose it is that so many great singers have been in particular drawn to that song?
Well, I believe it’s the melody, to be honest with you, and the lyrics, of course, but my melodies were really avant-garde at the time, but very melodic, and a lot of the melodic singers could sing my songs, so I believe it was of these.
Frank Sinatra Jr.’s Version
Are you familiar with the version of that song that the late Frank Sinatra Jr. did?
No, I’m not. No.
I have to say it is a really, really, at least to me, it’s an impressive version. It came out on his album ‘Spice,’ and he, I think, I thought he nailed it. Something to look for.
Realizing Success as a Composer
Was there a moment when you thought, okay, we’ve really, we’ve made it, the hits just keep coming, I’m a very successful composer?
Well, it’s rolled along, you know, it wasn’t overnight. I mean, it was overnight, but it still took some time, you know, because they go in the studio and it takes them six months to do an album, you know, and so anyway, by the time of 1970, which is when ‘Rainy Days and Mondays’ came out, we were pretty well established at that point.
And Nepal, actually, was kind of starting to do his own thing. And he and I kind of split up in the ’70s. And he went one way and I went another. And that’s kind of a shame, but that’s just what happened.
Relationship with Paul Williams
Do you still keep up with Paul? Do you ever hear from him?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, we talk once in a while. You know, his birthday is two days after mine. It’s September 17th and September 19th. And he always made a joke. He says, “Roger, I gave you two days to write a melody before I was born.” We both turned 80 this year, and we congratulated each other for still being alive.
Art Garfunkel’s ‘Traveling Boy’
I’m curious to know, it’s one of my favorite albums. I’m talking about ‘Angel Clare,’ the debut recording of Art Garfunkel. What did you think of his take on your song ‘Traveling Boy’?
I thought it was quite good. I thought it was quite good. They messed up the chorus a little bit, but it was very good. I liked that record. And it was a hit.
Favorite Cover of His Songs
Would it be possible to pick the version of one of your songs that somebody has done that you thought, okay, this was just a knockout. This person, they nailed my song?
Well, I got to give Carpenters number one, but Paul and I wrote a song called “The Drifter,” and it was recorded by, let me see here, I’ll look at this up a minute ago, by Harper’s Bizarre. It was recorded by Steve Lawrence, Teddy Rodman, and some other people with Sandpipers, and Steve Lawrence.
Harper’s Bizarre recorded ‘The Drifter,’ and believe it or not, they left out the bridge, but I thought it was a fantastic recording, and that’s what comes to mind.
Surprising Covers of His Songs
Has there been a version of one of your songs that surprised you the most, and I mean surprised you either in a good way, like, oh, that’s cool, but I don’t know if I would have imagined it being done that way, or it could be like, that surprised me and boy were they wrong?
No, not really. I don’t remember any bad records, you know. There’s so many of them, it’s hard to pick out. Um, I don’t know. Herb Alpert did know that one of my songs called “Love So Fine,” which I really liked. And he recorded a song of mine called ‘The Song for Herb,’ which I really liked. And those were kind of in the midst of all the other stuff.
Creation of ‘Times of Your Life’
I was listening to the song ‘Times of Your Life,’ which, as I was mentioning at the beginning, Paul Anka recorded that one. And you wrote that with Bill Lane. How did Paul Anka come aware of that song?
Okay, Bill Lane worked for J. Walter Thompson, a company, which was a huge advertising company in New York. And they wanted a new song for Kodak. And Bill Lane called me and he said, “Would you write to melody to the ‘Times of Your Life.’ I sent it back to New York and he said, “I love this song.” He said, “We’re going to get this recorded.”
And so he finally said, “Would you mind if I wrote the lyric?” And I said, “Well, I don’t know. We’ll give it a shot.” So he came out there late, and we worked on the song for a couple of days, and finally it got where it was to finish.
So he says, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to hire six major recording artists to do a two-minute commercial for the radio. And so Paul Anka was one of the six artists that’s recorded ‘Times of Your Life’ for the radio, and it became an immediate hit on the radio.
So then Kodak got Paul Anka to do some on-camera stuff too, and all that stuff, and Paul Anka this day takes credit for writing the song, and he had nothing to do with writing the song. He’s a…
Yeah, well, you’re not the first person who said that on the show, by the way.
Jewelry as an Avocation
Well, I want the listeners out there to check out “RN,” like Roger Nichols, RNStudios.com, something that you do that is very interesting. You’re involved as a jeweler. How did you say that, about 30 years ago?
Interesting, I still do it a little bit now, and I do it during the holidays, but it’s just been an avocation. It’s been fun for me. It’s something for me to do besides music, and I enjoy it, you know. Interesting.
Current Songwriting Activity
So do you still compose melodies a good bit?
No, I pretty much stopped when the music business became so weird. But even if I wrote something, who the hell would ever record it, you know? Yeah, so I just kind of gave it up, you know. I did two or three albums for Japan, and I don’t know, they were just, I had a fan club in Japan, so the Small Circle of Friends was a big group there.
And I recorded two different albums of them for Japan, but it was nothing big deal, no big deal.
Current Hobbies and Family Life
One time I was calling you, it was a couple weeks ago before we were setting up this interview, and you were saying that you were playing tennis that day. Yeah, what would you say you’re happiest doing these days?
Well, obviously, playing tennis is a good exercise for me, but I enjoy it too. I play three times a week, old man doubles. But we have an indoor court, we have two indoor courts, and we play regularly, so that’s fun for me.
I still do the jewelry, so I still mess around with that. And I’m kind of an art collector, so I have a pretty fair amount of art around my studio. And I don’t know, but I look after my kids. I have three daughters, and like, two of them are visiting right now. Anyway, I have my hands full.
Defining Roger Nichols
What is the best thing about being Roger Nichols?
Well, I don’t know, I obviously, the music business is really me, all this other stuff is a sideline, but the music business and writing songs and hearing them recorded is really Roger Nichols.
It’s not limited to music. It’s whatever you want to say to anybody who’s tuned in listening to us, what would you say to that person?
Well, I would say if you are a musician or you want to write songs, you need to work at it, you need to work at it and spend about five years to become a hit songwriter, but if not five years, you will learn a lot. And you will know if you’re any good or not at the end of five years. Interesting.
Well, you know, I put all these different labels on you in this interview. I said that you’re a composer, a recording artist, a musician. I said you were a jeweler. How would you define Roger Nichols? Who is Roger Nichols at heart?
Oh, Roger Nichols is a composer. That’s for sure. No question about it.
Reflections on Being a Composer
What about one of the greatest composers in the world?
Those are my words. I don’t know about that. Yeah, those are your words. I won’t refuse them.
Well, Mr. Nichols, it’s been a pleasure to interview you.
Well, thank you. It’s been my pleasure. Thank you for doing, you know.
Thank you. You’re welcome.
